Getting Hired, Interviewing, and Why Recruiters Suck with Taylor Desseyn

I sure hope you're hungry.

Oh, I'm starving.

Wash those hands, pull up a chair, and secure that feed bag, because it's time to listen to Scott Tolinski and Wes Bos attempt to use human language to converse with and pick the brains of other developers. I thought there was gonna be food, so buckle up and grab that o handle because this was going to get wide eyed as old.

This is the Syntax supper club.

Welcome to Syntex on this Friday supper club. We have A really great one for you today. We have Taylor Edessen here. He's gonna be talking about hiring and, what you could do to make yourself Stand out for anybody looking to pick up developer help. He's a, talent advocate at gun.io,

And, we're gonna be talking about a lot of fun stuff today. So, Taylor, what's up? How you doing, my man? It's good to be here. It's good to be here. There's nothing better than starting out of the morning with, with you boys. Hey.

It's good to hear. If you're writing software that, you want, you know, people to notice, You're gonna wanna make sure that you notice all the bugs in your software, so head on over to century.

I o and give it a try. It's a perfect place To capture all your errors and exceptions, syntax is presented by Sentry.

Alright.

So let's get into it. Taylor, How's it going? 1st and foremost, do you wanna give a little bit of background on you, who you are, what you're doing? Maybe even, like, what is a talent advocate? Yeah. I have no idea know what I'm doing, boys? Just to be totally honest with you, I'm just making it.

No. So, yeah, I've been in the I've been in the recruiting space for 12 years now, and, that is an eternity to be in the recruiting space. So I was I was your typical agency recruiter for 11 years.

You know, the typical recruiter that you would hate, that would call DM you and not know the difference between Java and JavaScript.

Well, I tell you what. You wanna throw recruiting agencies for a loop right now? Ask them if they've heard of BUNK Oh, yeah. And just see and just see what they say.

They'll They'll they'll be like, is that the new restaurant down the street? So, Yeah. Been recruiting for 12 years. I I recently left the agency world.

I I I got I got tired of just agency recruiting, and and I wanted to be building more relationships, with engineers and the tech community, which I'm really passionate about, and and you just can't do that in the agency world. It's too high volume, high metrics, sell now.

And so, I moved to Gun. Io, which is really cool. So, we are a talent marketplace platform.

We're kind of in the middle of, like, Or and, like, if you were to take, like, agency recruiting and then, like like, a pure software product and, like, mash us together, that's what we are. So we have a full team of engineers Developing a product for engineering leaders to be able to search through our inventory, to be able to select our inventory across the world.

And then we also, are you know, as a developer, you can join on. You can, you know, kinda kick start your freelance consulting career. 65% of our roles are, like, freelance consulting part time roles. The other, 35%, is, like, full time roles.

But yeah. So join join them, and I I've been there for 3 3 months now, and absolutely having a blast. I I was I was gonna ask you if you are aware of the reputation

that recruiters have because it's it's it's actually funny. You know, It it is always kind of been a a thing in our industry to kind of rag on recruiters a little bit for Oh, I ragdollars.

Yeah. Yeah. So it it was always, like, do they know what what what developers are are thinking about recruiters? Yeah. Like, why

Why are they so awful? Like, I I get so many emails from these recruiters, and they seem Like, they're just like spray and pray. Like, if I email enough people, something's gonna go. Is is that what most recruiters are? Like, Do recruiters have any like, obviously, I'm joking. I'm kinda joking here, but do they have any skills other than just sending lots of emails?

No. I we really don't. We really don't.

We don't read well. We don't listen good.

You know? So, yeah, we're a mess. I mean, listen. I think at the end of the day, agency recruiters, the reason why we have such a a really the the industry has such a bad name is is because You you have to kinda sell now. Right? Kinda like what I alluded to. I kinda wanted to get out because I was just so tired of, like, you're only good as your last deal. And if you haven't closed a deal in 60 days, but you're out going to conferences and making relationships and and and doing things the right way. It still is not enough. Right? Yeah. So Agency recruiters, it's you know, the the mindset is is we'll hire a bunch of kids out of college, pay them a a relatively low salary, high commission.

And, well, the only way you can get commission if you place people, but then most people realize that the only way to place people is by activity, and we all know that activity does not always equal Productivity.

And so, what we do is is is we spam the living daylights out of you, and and then we lose reputation and then Yeah. Which the it's kind of this vicious cycle because of because we spam and we don't get anywhere, so we spam even more. It's just this vicious cycle. A a recruiter can make

Bank. If you actually like like, let's say you you play somebody at Netflix for 400 k. Typically, what does a recruiter take out of that percentage way? We only take 1st year salary.

So it's not it it's still lucrative. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I spent Like, is it, like, 10% or something like that? So so so, traditionally, 20%. That's what gun does. I know some agencies are pushing more towards 30%.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's 20 to 30% of 1st year Salary. And that just is a check cut to the company. We, of course, don't keep all of that. It's split up various different ways within the organization. Wow. That Seems a lot like like real estate agents is correct. If you've got the people skills

like you can and you got the connections right. Like if you can Not, like, learn what Java is, and you are good at, like, getting on the phone with people and talking. It seems like you could probably Make some decent money at at least in the the heyday. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely at the heyday right now, for sure.

You know, I mean, I would I would argue we are in a developer a recession right now. It's you know, the overhiring the last 2 years has been a fascinating thing that we're having to, you know, still level set from.

But, yes, I I can confirm when it was good. It was really good. Yeah. I I guess that's that's a a good lead into a a question I really wanted to ask was maybe, Like, how has things changed exactly from even, like, 10 years to 5 years to now? Like, what what's the progression in the the change been over time? 3 months. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. 3, yeah, 3 months, seriously.

You know, right, it's funny. I I'm I I'm kinda like a developer Because I remember recruiting when .net web forms was hot.

Like like like, back in the day, I mean, when NBC came out, like, that was a thing. Like, .net NBC. Nashville is a is a heavy .net town. That's why I'm saying these technologies. So, so it's been fascinating watching the shift in technology over the years, you know, with, with still Ruby and PHP making a pop every now and then, you know, for it's been interesting.

So in 2020, 2022, I mean, you could sleepwalk your way through an interview, right, and and get 5 or 6 offers. I mean, it was The last 2 years has just been something that I don't know if we'll ever see again. I've I've I've had talks with other recruiters. I've had talks with other hiring managers in tech.

We don't know if we're ever gonna see that again. I I think it was a very special case because of COVID.

But but but I do think right now, we're we're not in a Spot. Right? I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. You know, a a a Slalom Consulting just did huge layoffs last week.

You know, they're a huge software consulting company across the world.

You know, so we're still seeing layoffs. And and I think what happened is this company just over hired with reckless abandonment. And I call that, it's it's it's it's it is on my podcast.

You know, you you can you can find it where I was like, this we cannot sustain this. Like, this is just Unsustainable.

There are gonna be repercussions, and, and we are currently going through those repercussions over iron. Yeah. It does seem like some companies like

Apple or even Century where we're at, you know, they they did a very measured hiring, and they've always kind of done measured hiring. Good. Right. And have You know, through this point, they're still hiring.

And, yeah, it just goes to show you that there probably was this Massive influx. So everybody's flushed with cash. You gotta get as much talent on as possible, and then

Once things start to tighten up. Yeah. I mean, one one of my friends who was, who's a hiring manager, not hiring manager. He was a project manager at Peloton. He had 5 managers in 6 months. Wow.

So, I mean, obviously, Peloton is a whole another story in and of itself, but

they they were hiring With reckless abandonment as well. Yeah. Yeah. They they're they're kinda going through it, which which is crazy because their product is so good. The software product's good. The hardware product's good, But it's like they they Yeah. Their company is not gaining any steam because of a a number of factors.

It's interesting. I okay. What's a what's a good thing In this day and age, in, you know, 2024, so to say, the developers can work towards to make themselves actually stand out not only for getting an interview, but to get past that interview. You know, This is a great question.

I was down at Atlanta this weekend at Atlanta developer day. I had a I presented on a panel with Kelly Vaughn, who's a director of engineering, at Spot AI. And and we we had a great conversation around this, and and I think there is this I this is my 2¢.

There is this social proofing that is occurring right now, I think, with the tech industry around content creation and and putting yourself out, on the Internet. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this. Right? Because if people listen to this in the future, they're like, well, I don't do it. I'm gonna stop listening. No. Don't turn us off. My brother is a product owner at Eventbrite, he has had a very successful career. He has found jobs, and he has and he has been able to stay in jobs without putting anything on the Internet. So I I absolutely think you do not need to be this content creator post on social media full time. However, however, I do think To stand out in today's world is you gotta do more than what's going on. Right? So, like, for example, junior devs come out of boot camp. Your capstone project or your main project isn't enough anymore Because we've reached market saturation at this point. Right? You have to do something else to stand out, whether it's taking on more volunteer projects or documenting your journey on LinkedIn, which I'm so passionate about. Right? Even for senior engineers, I I think they're I think if you can put yourself out there and social proof yourself, to the community and people know who you are, the easier gonna be to find a job. Listen. This is my full time job is creating content for Gun. I was even doing it not as a full timer at Veiko, the company I was at, but I wasn't getting necessarily paid for it. And the fact of the matter is is that I found a job, and I'm not bragging. I'm just Saying, like, I do it for for the last 3 years, and I found a job in 4 weeks. Mhmm.

Right? It's because now and shout to tech community. They wrap their arms around me, and they just The the the out the the the support was unreal. Like, I'm super blessed.

But I could only get there because I was giving back to the community.

Right? And I think I think you have to be out there. You know? Does everyone need a podcast? No. Does everyone need a blog? No. But do I think you should post on LinkedIn once a day about your journey and what you're learning or something you're dealing with? Absolutely. Yeah. We have that with when we had the boot camp, I had a lot lot of people come to me and I was like, you gotta get on Twitter. You gotta

post a blog post or 2. And a lot of people are like, Wes, I don't want to be you. I'm not in in this to be some sort of at the time they said that Now now everyone says it. Like, I'm not I don't wanna be an influencer, you know? And it's like, no. Like, we're not doing this to be influencers.

Like, Get, like, a laptop sent to us so we can review.

We're doing this because, like, you when somebody comes and checks out your stuff, They're looking to hire you, then they can they can check out that you're legit, and they can kinda see that you're interested in things and that you You take part in the community and and whatnot, and that stuff's important to a lot of people. And, unfortunately, a lot of people wait until it's too late.

Oh, crap. I lost my job. Better sign up for Twitter and LinkedIn account. Make some blog posts. Post 1 blog post. I think, you know, like, Don't wait until it's too late, especially in the market that we have right now. The people that have been doing it for

3 or 4 years are gonna have a lot easier time finding Work than someone who's just starting up. Yeah. I mean, because, like, my thing is I I love it how people are like, I don't wanna post LinkedIn. I don't wanna post LinkedIn. And then they lose a job, And guess where those 1st place they post to? Yeah. Yeah. LinkedIn. It's like, alright. If you're not opposed to LinkedIn, but then you lose a job and you're opposed to LinkedIn, like, Come on now. Yeah. You can't have it both ways. Yeah. And and and to go along with what you were saying too, Wes, like,

I I'm not gonna say that I got Many of my jobs because I did YouTube and whatever, but it certainly never hurt in a job interview, or it never hurt To get that job interview when people would see, oh, wow. This guy has a YouTube channel where he's teaching this stuff versus a candidate who's doing nothing. Right? Or maybe has, You know, a couple things in their GitHub or some things on their resume that are, you know, probably impressive. It it it helps you stand out.

So I I guess, another way to take this would be, like, what what are things that developers do that make them stand out in a negative way? They get them, like they're they're put to the bottom of the pile. Well, there's a lot of complaining going on too. Right? I mean, there's there are people that I know that I see on Slacks, Discords,

LinkedIn, they constantly complain. Constantly complain. You're just negative Nancy. Right? Can't get a job here.

Terrible interview.

It was their fault. Right? Really? Really? After a year, it's their fault still? Are we really doing that? Right? And so So let's be careful about that, people. Right? Let's let let's be careful about the type of content we're putting out and being negative.

I also think too I think I think developers, in general, at least at least, again, my 2¢ Is there's not a lot of intentionality when it comes to the interview process.

Right? If if if if I ask you What the company does that I work for and you can't even give me a 1 sentence overview. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Right? Like and and I think that's been the biggest issue that I think a lot of people are dealing with. Because, again, The last 2 years or 2020 to 2022, you could sleepwalk and get 5 offers.

Now you you could Kill your interview in the best way possible and still not get an offer because companies right now want the perfect person Because they don't really wanna hire, but they need to hire.

And so they're in this weird thing, so they're being extra picky.

Right? So, again, I mean, it it like, The attention to detail I I am I I was able to podcast with Kevin Cline. He was you know, he wrote, I think, fundamental sequel, you know, O'Reilly Book and and he was at, AWS, and he had a great conversation on communication in the workplace. And and I posted this clip, and the clip was, like, Men, like, we need to groom when we go on calls. Like, we need to be, like, presentable.

And the copy I wrote on that post was, listen. I'm not telling you to go shave your beard.

What I'm telling you to do is that attention matters during this time. Right? And and and how you show up matters. And so I think those are the Two big things on where a lot of developers are missing out right now. Yeah. I've been on the hiring side of things before,

and You get you're seeing what? Like, it depends on the job role. But the thing I was hiring for, we saw, like, 10 people in a day. Right? Just 1 after the next. And that's a lot of people to go through. Right? And when you do that, there are some implicit things that you notice about how people both carry themselves, Up appear.

Answer the questions. Do the things that are beyond a resume or any of that stuff, and it matters.

So you could be, like, too cool for school and then not get the job, or or you can, you know, Go out of your way to make yourself look and and be more of an attractive candidate. Not like a physically attractive candidate, but a, you know, an attractive candidate for that.

Active candidate for that.

What about like, sometimes you hear people do crazy things like go sit in somebody's waiting room for 24 hours or Put a billboard outside or send them a pizza with their name on us as higher. Is that stuff just, like, cheesy

Or have have you ever have you heard of that ever working? I mean, here's the deal. I've never heard of it working, but I will tell you this. Right? And so for people who listen to the pod, Let's say I was in a hiring position, and you and I and I was hiring you the next day, and you heard that I love chocolate chip cookies.

Yeah. Specifically, oatmeal chocolate chip cookies. Those are the go, by the way. Right? Big chocolate chip connoisseur, cookie connoisseur. And you sent me a sleeve of Levian Levaine, however you pronounce it, those New York cookies that are so good Before the interview by the way, I'm setting somebody up here. I better get some cookies in the mail.

It to me, that shows that you took the extra effort sending a pizza. Now if I told you I love pizza from so and so place and you send me a pizza, I think that's good. So so, Wes, I guess to answer your question, I think just to do it for the sake of doing it is dumb. But I think if there's some intentionality behind it Mhmm. Right? Like Like, you know, I've seen Scott, like, breakdance. Right? Like and and he's posted the other day that he wore a helmet so he doesn't lose his hair, right, or something like that. Like, may I don't know. May maybe I send Scott, like, a helmet. I don't know what to say, like, he's it's that yeah. It's that type of intentionality that I think could really level up,

yourself during an interview. Yeah. That that and it makes perfect sense because what it does is it shows, Like, thoughtfulness, it shows that you you care, and that's really what people wanna see is that you care. You care about The details. You care about the work. You care about the company.

One one thing that I always had trouble with in interviews was when they ask you, Like, what kind of questions do you have for us? And I know that's kind of like a red flag to not have any questions, but I legitimately never felt like I had any questions even though I was Interested and, like, knew about the company. I I always felt like I maybe did my research and didn't have any questions. What are what are some, like, good questions that developers can ask that show they care about

the the work or the company. Yeah. The question game is interesting, and we actually talked about this this past week, and I think there's 2 things I wanna address. I wanna address that question, the the tell me about yourself question Yes. As well because I think people really struggle with that. So let's go with your question first. I will tell you this. As somebody who went through the job search recently, I don't think companies allow enough time for back and forth banter and questions. I that's just my experience. Right now, I'm not a developer. Never been through a developer specific Interview process. But in my experience, is that I actually had a lot of questions.

And I never actually got to those questions Because we spent the whole time just having a conversation, and I was like, alright. Well, this sounds great. Let's move on to the next thing. Right? And so my my thing to you, I I have a list of questions. If you go to solo.t0back/tidesen, so, again, that's solodot t o backslash t d e s s e y n. I actually have a public Notion page where I list a ton of questions to ask in the interview process because this is a very, very difficult, thanks. So I'm I'm actually gonna read, a few of them. I'm actually pulling them up right now as we're interviewing.

So so there's a lot. Like, what what major issues are you bringing me in to solve? What does the 1st 30, 60, 90 days look like? Can you paint me a picture of what success looks Like, for this role in the 1st 6 months, are there any concerns you have in my ability performing this role? I think that's kind of a that's a tricky one because sometimes the interview may not wanna tell you.

Why is this role open right now? There's stuff on culture and leadership. How would you describe the culture of x company? How do you differentiate yourselves amongst your competition in that way.

Do you like your job? How do you celebrate success? 22 questions on workflow skills.

What does success look like in this role, and how is it measured? What does onboarding process onboarding process look like? So those are kind of just a few questions, but I have It's a massive doc

on my Notion page for you to check out. Wow. I wanna see if you guys can follow-up to this. That's a great question. About, like, more technical questions as well? Because, like like, if I was in an interview and somebody said, hey, are you guys using BUN for your build or something like that? Or are you guys using PMPM? Or What's your type situation? Like, as a as a hiring person hiring, I've never hired anybody before other than contractors, but I would think like, oh, like this person Sort of knows their stuff if they're able to hold the conversation back and forth. Does that matter as much as these sort of leadership cultural

Sure. Yeah. A 100%. I mean, I I think I think and and this is just what I've seen is that Hiring managers really want the people. So, we I staffed up a company a few years back that one of their one of their hiring questions goes, are what Resources are you reading, listening to outside of work to keep up with tech trends? Mhmm. Like, they wanted you to list podcasts, articles.

And and and I think that allow anything that allows an interview to go from an interview to a conversation is a game changer. Right? Because I think a lot of people, like, well, I hate interviewing. I hate the reason why he interviews because you're not talking back to the person. Yeah. Right? And so when you can flip the script and be like, hey. Listen.

I know bun is all over that they gotta change the name of that thing. That sounds awful. But the but, like, bun's all over Twitter, tech Twitter. What do you guys I like As your have your dev team's been tinkering with it? Like, what does it look like? Right? Are you guys using Vercel? Like, what, like, what does all that stuff look like? And I think being able to have that conversation with an engineering leader, I think could help elevate the interview to a conversation, which which is a whole different style of an interview, which is a lot more fun. Yeah. That really tracks. In in my personal experience, I had to do

I went to the school of music, and, I did not have an instrument. So most people, they go into the school of music, they audition, and it's how well you can play that instrument. Right? And Sure. I was a drainer. Guy. Well, Yeah. So and so for me, I had to do an interview.

And My interview, because I I wasn't going in for a, you know, instrument specifically, I knew that I was going to get into the University of Michigan because I spent my entire interview talking about Sigur Ros in Radiohead with my interviewer instead of talking about anything important. And it was just like we were talking about the concerts we had been to, and it was just like a a back and forth chitchat. And if you can get to that point, that shows that you're you're connecting On a different level with with the people because you're you're connecting as, you know, as as peers. You're connecting as somebody they could see themselves, You know, existing with a in a professional space. Right? And and that's really what you're auditioning for is you're auditioning to be, essentially, in a position where you're going to be Side by side with these people trying to accomplish goals. If they believe you could do it in the tech wise, a lot of it's feeling unfit for, like, how well is your personality gonna vibe with the rest of the people in the office? Yep. Absolutely. I do wanna address the tell me about yourself question because we got question this weekend,

down in Atlanta. You need to frame the question up as it relates to the interview and the interviewers.

Right. So for example, if I'm interviewing so I I know Scott and I messaged about ice hockey, and and, you know, Wes is in Toronto. So so I was interviewing both you boys, right, same time. Right? What I would do is I'd probably bring up hockey In some way, shape, or form. I play ice hockey here in Nashville. I'm on a really competitive team. Wes, what you you you smiling. Oh, yeah. Wait. I I'm the furthest thing from a sports fan in the world. Just not really hot. Hockey being in not even hockey, man.

Oh, I can't stand it. Alright. I know it's, anyways.

Alright. Anyways, this is going south real fast. So I'll talk about all the key West can do. So, Scott, I'm just interviewing with you. Wes, I'm not interviewing you anymore. So, Scott, so I I would probably bring that up. Right? I'd I'd I'd bring it up. Maybe I'd do some research, and and I I would listen to to y'all's Podcast episodes and and try to learn more about you, Scott, and and, like, bring that into the interview. And so then what I would do is I'd frame up my question. Tell me about yourself as it relates to you and me. Right? So we both have hockey in common. I can't dance. If I did dance, I'd probably bring that up too in the interview. Right? I'd probably bring up, like, where you got your glasses from you and I both have hip glasses on. Right? So, like, again, like, trying to break down the barriers of that person as it relates To that tell me about yourself question is huge. Right? If if you went to an SEC school and you're a big SEC football fan, right, bring that up. I I graduated from the University of South Carolina. Oh my gosh. Did. I went to Auburn University. Oh my gosh. Blah blah blah. Right? And and because what happens is is people go tell you about yourself. Like, I've been a developer for 5 years, and I've done React for 2 years. And and and and currently, I am doing this.

Alright. Well, no I can get that off of your resume. Give me something else. That's how you answer that. Tell me about yourself. And it's so big. I did a 1 on 1 with a individual coming out of college.

We worked on her tell me about yourself statement for 45 minutes.

45 minutes.

She messaged me a month later and goes, I got the job because that tell me about yourself question, I framed it up perfectly, and it set the tone for the rest of you. Yeah. People neglect that. They think they think that I'm

number 1 programmer, and that guarantees me job no matter what.

And it it it doesn't. Peep there's a lot of good there's a lot of people who can program well. You know? And and most of the time, the job's not calling for the number 1 programmer.

It's calling for the programmer's gonna work well within the the team in the group. I I That's so true. Love that you what you're saying about, like, You know, framing all the questions to set the interview off on the right foot because if you do like somebody,

you're gonna want you're gonna want them to do well in the interview. And you're on vibe. It's all about vibe. Right? And I say that, and people are like, what what's vibe? I don't know. Like, that's why I tell people it's like, how do you make friends? You you just Get along with that person. Right? Like, you meet especially these guys. Right? Like, the ongoing joke is, like, we run into a dude, like, somewhere, and, like, we immediately kick it off, and we're just, like, friends, Kinda friends, and we just kinda stay friends because we just vibe with each other. Yeah. Same thing with the interview. Same thing with the interview. If you kick it off with somebody from the get And you're just vibing. The whole entire interview changes the tone. I do wanna, also, be before West gets into anything, I do wanna say thank you for calling my glasses hip,

because My You got great glasses. You got great glasses. Thank you. For sure. My when I bought these glasses, my wife was like, I do not know about those glasses.

My wife did not like my glasses either, and she still doesn't. Okay. She saw them. She saw, like, a celebrity wearing them, and she's like, not gonna because I told her. Listen. I said, I got a good intuition. Give it a couple months, and you're gonna see a lot of people with similar glasses.

And she saw, like, 1 celebrity and another celebrity, And now she'll, like, she'll just, like, throw on a face. She'll be like, yeah. I saw another person with your glasses, and they're cool looking. I'm telling you. They look good. My my wife said exact thing. She goes, those are, like, creeper glasses. And and then, of course, like, everybody in Nashville has them now. And she goes, okay. Fine. I still hate them, but I can see that you're wearing them, or I can see why you're wearing them.

Oh, that's good. Yeah, I was gonna say, when I meet people at conferences or we have people on the podcast, it's it's crazy how quickly you can go from Meeting somebody to to getting it, having a really great conversation about even things that are totally unrelated. Like I talked to somebody at last conference I was at about, like, propagating plants. And we had an awesome conversation. Obviously, that that led into More technical in in what they're doing, but, like, it's just a skill that not everybody has because it's like, why not? We're not One track people.

So my next question here is what other soft skills are employers looking for when they're going through an interview.

You know, I I I think passion, is something that I've seen a lot of employers want because I think and and and I know when I've hired for my teams in the past, you could be passionate about knitting.

You could be passionate about fish.

But at the and I don't care. But at the end of the day, if your pass if you can find passion for something, there's a good chance that you're gonna find passion for your job, potentially. Right? The I think the people I'm like, what are you passionate about? They're like, no. Nothing really. How how do you know I have passion? Like, I'm passionate about, like, corgis.

Right? Me and Jason Langsdorf hit it off one day on our on the on my pod because we both love corgis. Right? Like, Again, I I think I think hiring managers want passion. I think hiring managers want people who are inquisitive, who ask questions, Who communicate when they don't know. Again, I I don't know why I'm still saying this on a podcast.

Why why are we not being open when we don't know something? Like, I don't know why we haven't figured that out yet. Right? Like, if you don't know, just say you don't know. It's fine. There's nothing wrong with it, and yet I feel like developers these days are Just try to just push through an interview question that they don't know, and it's just blatantly obvious. And listen listen, interviewer, it's awkward for everybody. It's awkward to see us, Just to watch you struggle through it. It's awkward for you to push through it. Like,

just say you don't know. Move on. What what's the best way to say you don't know? Like, because, again, everybody's gonna know if you don't know by your answer. But what's the best way to stop and say Seriously. I don't know,

but turn it into a positive. Yeah. My thing is and this is just my 2¢. I I think going like, well, hey. Like, almost like the spelling bee can use it in a sentence type situation. Like, my thing is, like, I don't know something, be like, okay. I don't know exactly what you're talking about. Can you give me another example or something similar? And then And then tie it into maybe something because then they're like, okay. Because it may just be like verbiage. Right? They may they may call it a term that you don't know, but because you didn't ask that question for them to describe it more, You've missed out on answering that question. If you still don't know, be like, okay. Well, listen. I don't know what you're talking about, but it sounds like something I've done in relation to this. Then explain that and be like, is that close? They may be like, no. Not at all. Mhmm. But you at least you at least allowed yourself to Work through the process. The biggest thing I talk to on my podcast for engineering leaders is they want people who can, like, think through things.

Right? Who can problem solve? Because at the end of the day, like, that's what y'all do. Y'all problem solve code. And and if Even if you get something wrong, but you took the step of going, I don't know, can you ask again? Then maybe try and describe a similar situation.

That to me as as somebody who, like, is an interviewer, even though I don't interview engineers, to me, that still shows that, like, that is a problem solving like moment.

You took something you didn't know you worked through. Even if it's wrong, you at least allowed me to see inside your brain, which from the sound of it with engineering leaders, that's what they want. They just wanna see how you process things. Nice. What do you have any, gauge because I know we talked a little bit about how it's tightened up. Do you have any bit of a gauge as to, like, what tech like, actual tech skills

are showing up Frequently

for the things that exist out there. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll I'll mean, I'll I'll read kind of the last few jobs that we've got in a gun, just super high level. So React, React Native, Python, PHP, Vue, JavaScript, front end front end data engineer, back end engineer, Back end engineer.

You know, and that's just name it. Solutions architect that's more back end focus. I will tell you this. I I I think in my it just what I've seen in the market, Front end folks are a dime a dozen now, and I think React was hot when React again, I remember when React came out, and I was I I was trying to find People as a recruiters, like, where where are you? Yeah.

The no one's got it right now. Mhmm.

Now everyone has it. Mhmm. And now I'm trying to find back end engineers.

And no and, like, obviously, they're out there. Don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, there there was such a huge push because the money was all on React.

Now I see kind of the push back towards, hey. Listen. We need back end engineers.

Right? Another thing that I've seen which is a fascinating trend was When I started recruiting 12 years ago and really over the last up until last 3 or 4 years right before COVID, everybody wanted somebody who's An inch wide, a mile deep. Uh-huh.

Right? So people wanted somebody who, like, just did .net web forms, Right. What we talked about. I see what you're saying. Right? Just cobalt. Just cold fusion. I'm just getting through some old stuff.

But now I feel like a lot of a lot of companies want that polyglot engineer. Right? You know a little about a lot. Yeah. Yeah. A little about a lot and can be able to thrown into thrown into situations where you can kind of, like, think on your feet and code in different languages. That was not the case a few years ago, At least in my experience, hiring managers just wanted somebody to do one thing. Now there's a push to this polyglot side of things. And so I think if you can get really comfortable with a lot of back end languages, Especially Go, Rust. I'm seeing a lot of smatterings of that. Python, obviously, cloud services, specifically AWS, especially around, Lambda functions.

I'm thinking Azure type Stuff too. Like, those seem to be the the the happy hitters right now. And should we be like,

I don't know if gun. Io gun. Io uses resumes or I know you May we talk about in a sec about how We do not.

We you you create a profile within ours, and we never exchange those. But if somebody is Having a resume, should you just be like juicing your resume with React and Rust and and like sort of just putting all that stuff in there To try to check those boxes? Like, does is there SEO for resumes anymore? Or is that are resumes kind of a a done deal? No. Resumes aren't a done deal, but

I do have to say, I think your LinkedIn is incredibly important right now, especially to be found. Right? If you don't wanna be found, then don't have a LinkedIn.

But if you wanna be found, I would have a LinkedIn because here's the deal. Resumes, you can put them on Dice. You can put them on career builder monster, etcetera.

While those are searchable within the platform, I guess you could say LinkedIn searchable.

Everyone goes to LinkedIn to search.

Right? And and, yes, LinkedIn is spammy. Linked I I get all the complaints. I I get it. I get it. I get spammed every single day by a ton of people.

The fact of the matter is is the attention grab is on LinkedIn. I would say even more so lately because there's a lot of, tech folks starting to post more on LinkedIn because of the whole Twitter act situation. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Right. I made fun of LinkedIn for probably 15 years. Like, my middle name on

LinkedIn for, like, 8 years was No recruiters.

That's great. West. No recruiters, boss.

Which is really funny because they would like They're like, hello, Wes, no recruiter boss. Oh, my god. Did you know that that was a spam message? Right? So nice filter. But, Like, I recently just started posting my content on LinkedIn, and there is a lot of developers on there. And the, like, The ick factor is starting to die down, at least in the tech. I think like there's not as I think there's a lot of self congratulatory People on there still, but at least in, like, a developer circle, it's starting to die down. There's still a bunch of, like, JavaScript groups where people are like, what's OnePlus? Yeah. String of 1. And, you know, like those typical Right.

I I did the the Ick is really bad on HR, LinkedIn. Don't really don't get caught up on HR LinkedIn.

But For the most part, though yeah. And and and and I think I I think to answer your question on keywords and, again, I I have this on my public Notion page. I have a resume template.

Here's what I tell people on how to write their LinkedIn and their resume.

LinkedIn and your resume should be project specific.

Right? So a lot of y'all just put 15 bullet points of, like, task you It doesn't tell a story. We're we're all about storytelling. Right? Even back to the caveman days, it was storytelling. Like, we as humans Love storytelling.

And so for those of you who write a resume, it's just a bunch of 15 bullet points with a bunch of random tasks. Like, that's not gonna that's not gonna tell me anything. But if you can be like, hey.

There was 4 main projects. Here are the 4 main projects. Break them out. The first bullet point is tell me about the project like you're describing to somebody in your family. Right? So at the end of the day, we talk to people in our family differently than we talk to somebody in our industry. Right? So write it like the first bullet point. I developed an application that allows you or or you to get connected to stray cats in your area.

Right? That is very simple. My mother would understand that. Right? The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th bullet point, depending on how large the project is, it's very simple. It's I use technology x Because of y to solve z problem. Mhmm. Right? It's kind of the the star method's another thing that people talk about. But at the end of the day, What tools, technologies did you did you use to solve the problem? What was the problem? What is the star method? I don't even know. I don't even know. Oh, okay. People reference the star a ton.

I I I say what I just say. And then people are like, that's the STAR method. I'm like, okay. Great.

And then the last bullet point is what what, Wes, you just said. It is a one bullet point where you put all the tools and technologies that you touched in that project. And here's the reason for that.

So if if you're putting your main tools and technologies that you're using in the bullet points, you're probably wondering why do I have to put everything.

Because what happens is is recruiters search and hiring managers search on nice to haves and must haves within a job description.

And you could have touched a technology in that project that is a nice to have for another job. And if you don't put that in there, you won't pop up in that recruiter search as accurately. Right? So, again, I'm not asking you to, like, load your resume up. I I I've had people I've heard stories of, like, doing white ink, like, basically, like, if you load your entire resume. I just crazy shit. Don't do that. Literally, just do the framework that I just said, and you'll be extremely successful. Yeah. The STAR method is situation.

What was the challenge? Task.

What were you working towards? Action.

How did you address the situation and results? Yeah. What did you learn? And when I when I googled it, you knew exactly, like, what you're getting into because A bunch of, like, really awful, infographics with stars popped up, and it looked looked everything looked like it was made in PowerPoint.

So you can tell exactly what numbers you're getting into with the STAR method.

Exactly.

Yeah. That's that's why I just say x technology because of y to solve z, and then there you go. Yeah. Anecdotally,

my biggest, my biggest Salary ever came from a message off of LinkedIn, sent to me because of something that was there. So If you're still doubting real world, it worked for me. Let's talk about like developers listening to this.

Our like a platform like Gun. Io is sign up, you get vetted, and you could be placed in Freelance full time work. I know Toptal is is somewhat similar space as well. That's kind of our biggest competitor. Yeah. Yeah. And I've always heard that the the Toptal The vetting process was brutal, and I've always kind of wanted to do it to see if, like, am I just a guy with a podcast or would I stack up? Am I good enough? So what what's the gun dot io

vetting process to make sure these people are decent? Wes, I haven't known you for long, but I think you're great in my eyes. I just want you to know that.

So yeah. So it's interesting you brought that up, and I'm glad you brought that up. So we have 3 steps. And and and, again, people are just like, great. Three steps. Hear me out, please. 1st step, fill out your application.

We don't exchange resumes, so your application is the thing.

Right? And, like, we are very specific on how to fill it out. We actually, like, kick it back if we need more information. I mean, I would Spend at least an hour filling it out. We we get very specific on what are the projects you solved. Right? Everything I just said, give me specific projects, Specific things you accomplished. Don't give me general stuff. And what we do is we take into account our our engineering team wrote an algorithm where it basically takes in your rate, your location, your skill set, And based off the history of data that we have as it relates to the roles, you may get kicked out. Right? You may be senior and get kicked out. And for the most Part our gun. Io platform is geared more towards senior folks because at the end of the day, you don't throw a bunch of junior devs into a freelancing project. Right? So We we do have a we do have a Gun. Io Discord that we're doing a bunch of public stuff for. We're doing public open spaces because that that's one of my goals at Gun, and that's what I was hired to do to give back to the engineering community from the gun side, not just people within our platform. So you you fill out this application. Let's say you get accepted. Then you hop on a second call With a group of developers where you're gonna be chatting with, a a a wonderful lady named Victoria, it's it's it's it it's gonna be borderline interviewing.

We do kinda judge how you interact in crowds.

And then and then once that goes well, the 3rd round is is to a tech out with our DevRel team. We actually have a team of architects, former CTOs, VPs of engineering's on our team who actually text out developers. We do not do a code test, and it is not very brutal. We judge communication skills. The reason why we do that is because we know because of the way we have Structured our process that to get through, you gotta have the technical side. And because of the nature of freelancing contracting that we do, At the end of the day, you have to have the utmost communication skills to be a successful freelancer or contractor. So those are the things we we, we really Focus on we we don't do any hacker ranks or code tests. We talk about your code. We do obviously dive in a little bit technically, but that isn't the main focus. I had a question about

AI. And how is AI changing both what you're seeing in resumes, but also covering cover letters, any of that stuff.

Like, how how has that impacted your your world? Negatively.

Negatively.

It was kinda crazy. So I so I sit between our product team, our DevRel team, and our marketing team, at gun just because of every just kind of my role. I'm a butterfly. I get to bounce around.

And, basically, when I sit on the DevRel calls, there's a lot of People get rejected because it seems like they put their background through, like, chat GPT, and it spits out, like, a very generic cover letter.

It spits out a bunch of word vomit that just doesn't make sense. Listen, at the end, I understand the temptation to use Chat GPT to write a resume. I understand all of that, but please do not do that. At the end of the day, the job search is an intentional thing. It is very personal.

And if you are relying on AI to do something as personal as write your resume or write your application to gun, then then you don't need to be applying, in my opinion.

Yeah. So you're just seeing it as Corner cutting. It it comes off as inauthentic. Cutting. And I'm like, listen. Like, you don't need to if if you're using it, They just don't apply. They just don't apply. Yeah. That it it's really interesting because it it can like, people can look at it and make it seem like, well, You know, it it's gonna give me a better result than what I do on on my own, but it does show a lack of intention and a lack of, like,

humanity in a way. Right? A lack of a Genuine connection. And, again, right, we're going back to the start of our conversation. We're talking about how do you separate yourself.

That's not it.

I'll tell you that much. It's not it. It's a it's a, hiring ick. Yeah. It's a big ick. There you go. Look at Scott. Look at you kind of up on the The young I I started a TikTok I started a TikTok account to do my breakdancing on, and now I'm saying ick. So yeah. Oh, it keeps me young. TikTok's like my wife My mom said, how do you know these trends and words like TikTok? That's it. I feel like my my wife's on TikTok quite a bit too, but I feel like I'm, like, a couple weeks ahead of them,

ahead of her. And, I I often will say things. She's like, what are you talking about? Or What is that word? Exactly. And then I was, like, just you wait. And then, like, and then a couple weeks later, like, a week later.

Yeah. I love it. Mhmm. I love it. Yeah. What did I I told my dad something that was Gucci the other day, and he's like, I like that. And I was like, well, I, I did did not come up with it. Yeah. It's probably, like, 2 years late, and it's just now hitting us, you know, 30 30 year old. So, You can you can probably start saying it now, dad, and impress all your friends.

I love it. I love it. Alright. Last question I have. I'm just curious about your thoughts on TikTok, Social media marketing, all that. Have you have you found anything that specifically

works and resonates well? I know a lot of people are. Twitter algorithm is changing right now. TikTok is kinda, like, constantly changing. Is there any sort of, like, tips that you have to share with people? Yeah. I mean, I think Holly, I think this is where LinkedIn I mean, I hate to say it, like, you know, TikTok. I'm stuck in, you know, 200 to 400 view hell, but I I also said this in the conference. Like, 200 view hell. Like, there's 200 people that showed up for my conference talk, I'd be pretty happy about it. Right? And and every video you put out, you know, that's still good. So I wanna Reframe that for people who are, you know, maybe on TikTok and they're trying to put out educational content. They're still at the 100 to 200 views. Like, That's still, like, that's still more than you're gonna get speaking at a conference. Right? So, again, like, put that in perspective.

I I I do think social media is the unlock for networking at scale. Right? So I actually, I I, talked about this this past weekend. How many of us, like, open up Our contact list and our phones, and just scroll through the contact list just for fun. Yeah. Wouldn't that you never even consider it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, If I get your phone number, I'm never going to probably reach out to you again unless I have a thing. Right? So that's why social media is so important because, Scott, for example.

Right? Like, Scott is out there posting, and and I see him in my feed every day, and it and it it it's forced networking in a way of, like, Scott posts something. I see it. I can comment back. Right? And and even if in I mean and and and pull up full honesty, Scott messaged me on Instagram and goes, hey. I love you know, do you wanna do you wanna come on the show? And I said, absolutely. Right? And so, again and same thing with TikTok. I think TikTok's Green screen ability, especially if you're trying to create educational content with your thoughts and you struggle with how to create content, Taking a screenshot of an article and green screening feature on TikTok. Look it up. I had to Google it. I didn't know how to work it.

And then just doing, like, a 30 to 62nd thought On, on on an article about something and posting it and then posting that also on LinkedIn could be a great way To start becoming a thought leader in what air whatever area you wanna be. But listen, I am bullish on social media liking, commenting, Engaging with people day in, day out, it can make a massive, massive difference. Yeah.

Sick. Well, okay. Let's Get into the next part of our show here where we have the supper club questions, but I think we might need to modify them because many of them are, very I don't know. They're like, what kind of shell and and terminal do you use in in your yeah. Yeah. I don't So I like I I my favorite pasta is Shells. Yes. Pasta is shells. Okay. Wes, what is your favorite pasta? Is it wagon wheels? Oh, no.

I don't like pasta at all. I Famously, the only thing I don't like West doesn't like hockey or pasta. And it's funny because I Or movies. I like most things, and I'll try anything. But I When I was a kid, I would I had spaghetti, like, 3 times, and I roughed every single time. And I will never ever and the 1st time I went to my wife's Family Oh, no. We sat down, and she's like, I'm making spaghetti, and I laughed because I'm like, my wife for sure set them up and and told them, hey. Like, He hates spaghetti. It's the only thing in the world he won't eat. Like, he's a very adventurous eater, but spaghetti just can't do it. And it's just like, But they literally she forgot to tell them, and they made spaghetti the first time. So there I am just like I'm like, oh, no. It's fine. It's fine.

And, I I think I had to eat it. It was it was awful, but I'm not a big pasta guy. And, like So those of you who interview with Wes, buy him some pasta, some spaghetti sauce, And send it to him before you're trying to get on his feet there. Like, we went to Italy, and I was like, alright. You know what? I probably just haven't had good pasta.

You know, like, here we are going to Italy. I tried I tried, like, the squid ink one. I tried a whole bunch of it and just it all tasted like mac and cheese to me, which I know is, like, Awful. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

People are probably very offended right now, but it it ain't my bag. If there's one thing you get out of this, it's not how to find a job. It's the fact that West is, like, the only person in the world that does not like pasta. That's wild. And,

here's an interesting fact I learned. Let's do a quick question here. When do you think

tomatoes first arrived in Italy? We just went to Italy, me and my wife, And I don't remember. I don't I don't remember. Like, 1400? Yeah. It was 1548.

It's like most people expect I was a 100 years old? To have always been there because they feel like, you know, part of the the culture. Yeah. But nope. Nope. Yeah. Somewhat recently in the grand scheme of things. Somewhat.

In the in the the very grand scheme of things.

Here's a here's a question for you.

What do you prefer, in an office or remote working? Oh god.

Alright. It's so funny. I think I I made a post about this last week, on LinkedIn.

I'm a big so I I worked most of my career, I worked in the office before COVID. So 8 years in the office.

And then COVID was the 1st time I worked fully remote. I love fully remote. I have a 3 year old daughter. I can help watch her.

It's a great work, life balance.

I take I have a farm. We have horses, so I can, like, feed the horses, like, right after work. It's great.

I do have to say, I don't mind being in the office, and I love in person stuff.

But I but if I'm just gonna go into the office and sit on Zoom calls all day, like, that doesn't cut it. And so I I I do think of it as a whole another conversation about remote work and on-site work. I do think, high rangers, if you listen to this and you want people back in the office, be intentional on why. Right? I think you gotta go with the catered lunch. I think you gotta go with a big meeting. Think you gotta bring people on-site because if you're just making people come on-site now just to come on-site because big tech's Doing it, like, 1, you're gonna lose people, and 2, people are gonna get really, really annoyed. Yeah.

Alright.

What about if you had to do something differently in your career, what would you have done differently?

Start content earlier. Man, if I would have started doing this in, like, 2011 Mhmm.

When I started this started recruiting, Absolute game changer. So, yeah, I wish I start that's my only regret. I don't have many regrets.

If if if I would have started I you know, I started YouTube in 2012, And I wish I would have started soon too. So, you're you're one of the you I mean, I would still say you're considered one of the OGs. Well, at the time, it felt like I was I it felt like I had missed it, which is ridiculous.

That's wild. Because I still feel like we're still early in 2023, to be honest with you. Just A good indication that you're never too early or you're never too late. Just go for it at any time. Yeah. Correct.

Yep. How do you stay up to date on on, you know, best practices in your industry? Maybe not necessarily, like, developer stuff, but in in, like, what you should be doing to make yourself better at your job. How do you stay up to date? Twitter, is is huge. I think learning from you guys, right, following you guys,

being a part of Discords, meetups, Slack channels, with a bunch of, you know, high caliber engineers.

That's that that's kinda how I do it. I'm I'm a I'm a big proponent of being in rooms and keeping my mouth shut, and just And and just listening, and taking it in. And so, yeah, I would highly recommend, any recruiter out there, get them get involved at meetups, Slack channels, discords, and just just lurk

and and and learn and ask good questions. Alright. Let's move in in the last section, which is shameless plugs and sick picks. Actually, we'll grab your sick pick first. So

I I wanna give a shout out to GroupChat, the podcast.

So there are 3 guys, Dee, Drama, and, Anan, out in, LA.

And, they talk about all things tech, more like high level tech.

Not engineering tech, just the state of the technology market, pop culture, they do just an amazing job, in making, like like, I've learned so much about politics and Economics.

I mean, to be honest with you, I I learned more about them than I did in college, about just all that stuff. So highly recommend group chat. Big fan also too.

I just watched Painkiller on Netflix, which that is crazy. Makes you question a lot of things.

So if if if you have not watched Painkiller, it's basically about OxyContin and the takeover and how bad it was for the world or at least the US, and it was very, very eye opening on a lot of things. Yeah. That's one of those ones that's like, I feel like I gotta watch it, but at the same time, I feel like I really don't want to. Yeah. I feel dirt you feel a little dirty after washing. You're like, holy Like, if this happened, what else has been out there that's happened? So

Yeah. Oof.

Cool. What about, shameless plugs? Anything you would like to plug? Yeah. I mean, listen. I I I do a lot of stuff. I have a podcast guidance counselor 2 point o. Would love for anybody to check it out if you want to. I interview a lot of great engineering leaders on it, all the way down to individuals Had success laying a job out of boot camp. It is an engineering podcast.

And then I also have a founder podcast called Unicorn Finders where, Basically, we find startups doing really cool you probably haven't heard of yet.

So those 2 podcasts, I do the email newsletters, the texting communities. I'm on all Social media platforms. I mean, my full time job is to do this stuff. So, you can find me anywhere at tdessen. Yeah. Out here, folks.

That's for sure. I am out here. Yep.

Cool. Well, thank you so much, Tyler. This has been awesome.

If I'm ever in your area, I will hit you up and, look forward to seeing you around at conferences and, the socials and stuff. So, thanks so much. Alright. See you guys. Peace. Alright. Peace.

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